Washington Youth Soccer Salaries and Benefits

[FlyOnTheWall]

Isn't that the point, how can anyone dispute it if we don't know the source?  How would anyone know unless you are on the board itself?  I won't bother to try and justify anything until I know we are actually talking facts.  

But I won't go on a blog undentified and make accusations without proof knowing that this kind of talk only stirs up those who think there is a conspiricy around every corner.  So provide facts, not accusations, then let's talk.

The point is that he has provided facts - which don't appear to be in dispute. And as I'm sure you are well aware, wanting to make more money and padding expense accounts are not the type of thing to require wild conspiracy theories.

If FlyOnTheWall deserves criticism, it is because he has not substantiated the allegations of incompetence. I wish he would.

As to competence
 The comments from those who have interacted with Fischer during events are not flattering.

What happened to the Annual Awards Dinner? Fischer forgot to have anyone schedule it.He is currently whipping the employees to make an event happen in a few weeks that takes months to plan correctly Oh and by the way if you are a Hall of Famer, outstanding official or other recognized individual get ready to pony up. Fischer feels you should pay for the privilege of being recognized by his organization.

Speaking of tickets. What are the organizations 8 sets of season tickets being used for?, and by whom?

Fischer changed WYS's insurance provider.  The employees found out when they started receiving bills from doctors stating that their insurance had been declined.

Ignoring complaints and creating situations which open the organization to lawsuits.

Giving WYS's sponsorship management to an outside company that charges 50% of the existing sponsorship amounts and  has secured no new sponsorships for the organization. 

For the record I don't believe in a gunman on the grassy knoll. Hoffa's in the End Zone, Elvis and Pele iive together in Panama, or that Bigfoot was sighted at Quest. UFO's...I'll admit  I'm still out on. I do appreciate the tactic of trying to discredit the provider without arguing the validity of the information. Sometimes effective, but too transparent in this case D
What I do believe however is that Fischer and Company are robbing WYS blind and that ultimately the organization will pay a heavy price for the dubious privilege of having him at the wheel. Do with it what you will.
I have no personal interest past the fact that I despise  this type of theft and the culture of corruption. I have nothing to gain  nothing to gain either way.

[EWSoccer64]

Does this differ very much with the way that some of the clubs are run?

How much did the ED and State DOC make before these folks were hired?

Did they get cars and health benefits as well or are these perks new?

Is what Soccer Wonk pointed out true i.e. that the board has to ok any pay increases?

What is the source for this info?

Old ED made $85,000 at resignation/termination
Insurance
Shared company vehicle

Old D/C made $65,000
Insurance
Shared company vehicle

In what most of us would consider a "normal" corporate structure the board would have to approve these types of expenses. Washington Youth Soccer does not operate under this model. Fischer's title is ED/CEO. It is my understanding that this distinction gives him wide latitude financially and that he and the Board President are the only parties privy to these agreements. To my knowledge the board did not approve Fischer's compensation package, the retroactive raise, the additional 25,000 June 1st raise or the recent signing of a 5 year contract.

[goldengoal]

Does this differ very much with the way that some of the clubs are run?

How much did the ED and State DOC make before these folks were hired?

Did they get cars and health benefits as well or are these perks new?

Is what Soccer Wonk pointed out true i.e. that the board has to ok any pay increases?

What is the source for this info?

Old ED made $85,000 at resignation/termination
Insurance
Shared company vehicle

Old D/C made $65,000
Insurance
Shared company vehicle

In what most of us would consider a "normal" corporate structure the board would have to approve these types of expenses. Washington Youth Soccer does not operate under this model. Fischer's title is ED/CEO. It is my understanding that this distinction gives him wide latitude financially and that he and the Board President are the only parties privy to these agreements. To my knowledge the board did not approve Fischer's compensation package, the retroactive raise, the additional 25,000 June 1st raise or the recent signing of a 5 year contract.

Who leads the clubs?

[EWDOC]

EWSoccer64 has made a valid point, which is why not the outcry about the club structure of pay to play.  WYS members all play the same minimal amount to which WYS uses to run their corporation (which includes more programs then just the RCL btw).

But a fact is nothing more then a theory without evidence, to which Fly has chosen not to provide.  I'm willing to bet that this person has a bone to pick with the state and is afraid to admit so that he or she doesn't lose their credibility.  Why else make up statements that no one can substantiate?  If Terry F. gave himself a 25K raise and the board somehow didn't approve it, where is the evidence of this?  Where is the evidence that employees suddenly without any knowledge their insurance had been changed, had bills kicked back?  Where is the evidence that WYS paid for a trip for GW to go to Chicago just so he can benefit financially and apparently the state receives no benefit for this?  WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE?

[Edson Arantes]

It's not the cost, it's the value. Perhaps someone can inform us what added value these two provide to be the highest paid? Get their cars paid for?

Then again, seeing some of the interactions by these two posted by others, I think that there might be an even greater cost inflicted by these two when it is all said and done.

[EWDOC]

Then again, seeing some of the interactions by these two posted by others, I think that there might be an even greater cost inflicted by these two when it is all said and done.

I'll beat the dead horse, don't you even want proof?  Or if I say that Bigfoot is secretly hiding in my basement, but you're not allowed to see it because he's shy, that this would be good enough for WPS posters now.  Wouldn't you at least want to see a freaking picture or something?

I've got no problem of someone asking for the value as long as they ask it of all partipants of the system.  I happen to think that my $12 to the state goes to a good cause.  They fund TOP Soccer across the state, fund Soccer Across Washington, fund a staff that is implementing programs in the schools, work with the Sounders to create our state teams at a lower cost then ODP ever could, provide administrative support to their member associations, coaching education, all of which cost $$$.  Could they do it for less, you got me there.  But my question is still of all the $$$ I put out for my kid as a player, that $12 is probably the least of my worries when I add up local association and club costs.  Are you all telling me that all of those dollars are being spent more wisely and productively???  Just asking...and No, I don't work for the state nor get paid for what I do in soccer.

[tripleplay]

Then again, seeing some of the interactions by these two posted by others, I think that there might be an even greater cost inflicted by these two when it is all said and done.

I'll beat the dead horse, don't you even want proof?  Or if I say that Bigfoot is secretly hiding in my basement, but you're not allowed to see it because he's shy, that this would be good enough for WPS posters now.  Wouldn't you at least want to see a freaking picture or something?

I've got no problem of someone asking for the value as long as they ask it of all partipants of the system.  I happen to think that my $12 to the state goes to a good cause.  They fund TOP Soccer across the state, fund Soccer Across Washington, fund a staff that is implementing programs in the schools, work with the Sounders to create our state teams at a lower cost then ODP ever could, provide administrative support to their member associations, coaching education, all of which cost $$$.  Could they do it for less, you got me there.  But my question is still of all the $$$ I put out for my kid as a player, that $12 is probably the least of my worries when I add up local association and club costs.  Are you all telling me that all of those dollars are being spent more wisely and productively???  Just asking...and No, I don't work for the state nor get paid for what I do in soccer.

What kind of evidence you need depends on the nature of the statement. The statements of fact coming from FlyOnTheWall are reasonable and undisputed. He has provided good reasons for not detailing his sources. So to me, the claims are highly credible.

The true damage that WYS inflicts upon us is much greater than wasting some fraction of $12. It imposes thousands if not millions of dollars of needless travel costs upon us - ask Klinsman how common it is in Germany for a 12 year old to travel 1000 kms for a single one-hour soccer game.  WYS establishes a group of monopoly providers who cannot be challenged and have no incentive to grow the sport - so we see portions of the state with anemic participation rates. We see  WYS competitions continually being degraded - by declaring an increasing number of teams ineligible for state cup etc.The fact that you bring up some peripheral feel-good programs as indication of value is quite revealing.

[Left Foot]

3Play<<What kind of evidence you need depends on the nature of the statement. The statements of fact coming from FlyOnTheWall are reasonable and undisputed. He has provided good reasons for not detailing his sources. So to me, the claims are highly credible.>>

WTF!!!!!!

Try this statement on for size:


There is some speculation in the soccer community regarding what the compensation packages are for some employees at the state offices of Washington Youth Soccer. Here are the amounts for Terry Fischer CEO?ED and Gary White D?C

"Terry Fischer ED/CEO
Date of Hire 06/2010
Original Base salary $102,000 annually
Benefits Fully funded family insurance package
Company Vehicle Mercedes 560 SL Super Duper
Annual expense account Approx $13,000"

And TF gave himself a retroactive $2000 raise and likes Rob Patz.

Oh yeah, and if I state my source I'll be in trouble so don't ask.

In your book the statements above would be credible. But I just made it all up. Because no one is in a position to dispute something and the person making the statement comes up with a good reason why they can't reveal their source , it is true? Again WTF. You been talking to Sage to come up with this weird logic?

By the way, your second paragraph makes sense though.

[tripleplay]

3Play<<What kind of evidence you need depends on the nature of the statement. The statements of fact coming from FlyOnTheWall are reasonable and undisputed. He has provided good reasons for not detailing his sources. So to me, the claims are highly credible.>>

WTF!!!!!!

Try this statement on for size:


There is some speculation in the soccer community regarding what the compensation packages are for some employees at the state offices of Washington Youth Soccer. Here are the amounts for Terry Fischer CEO?ED and Gary White D?C

"Terry Fischer ED/CEO
Date of Hire 06/2010
Original Base salary $102,000 annually
Benefits Fully funded family insurance package
Company Vehicle Mercedes 560 SL Super Duper
Annual expense account Approx $13,000"

And TF gave himself a retroactive $2000 raise and likes Rob Patz.

Oh yeah, and if I state my source I'll be in trouble so don't ask.

In your book the statements above would be credible. But I just made it all up. Because no one is in a position to dispute something and the person making the statement comes up with a good reason why they can't reveal their source , it is true? Again WTF. You been talking to Sage to come up with this weird logic?

By the way, your second paragraph makes sense though.

But, see? Your claim was disputed in your own post. Nobody has disputed FlyOnTheWall's claims yet. It's not about logic - it's about assessing incomplete evidence.

I'm surprised to see you fall for the line(s) offered by EWDOC and others: 1. "Ignore because there is no (undefined) official proof." 2. "It's OK because somebody else in a soccer club somewhere else is also corrupt." 3. "Why do I care about alleged misconduct? The organization does all of these wonderful things!" Sad, really.

[EWDOC]

The fact that you bring up some peripheral feel-good programs as indication of value is quite revealing.

Wow, thanks for putting this out there, at least we know where you stand....I'm sorry you feel that encouraging kids to play via TOP Soccer or reaching out to kids in diverse communities is a waste of time or just a "feel good" program instead of part of the mission of our state association.  

[tripleplay]

The fact that you bring up some peripheral feel-good programs as indication of value is quite revealing.

Wow, thanks for putting this out there, at least we know where you stand....I'm sorry you feel that encouraging kids to play via TOP Soccer or reaching out to kids in diverse communities is a waste of time or just a "feel good" program instead of part of the mission of our state association.  

So does that mean that you believe that running an inclusive state cup, providing efficient competition, and growing the sport across the state are not part of the mission of our state association? Well at least that explains alot!

[EWSoccer64]

>>>Klinsman how common it is in Germany for a 12 year old to travel 1000 kms for a single one-hour soccer game.<<<

They take the train.  My borther was going from Berlin to Hamburg for a game when he was younger than that.   Scored several goals in that one match I am thinking of, too.

[tripleplay]

>>>Klinsman how common it is in Germany for a 12 year old to travel 1000 kms for a single one-hour soccer game.<<<

They take the train.  My borther was going from Berlin to Hamburg for a game when he was younger than that.   Scored several goals in that one match I am thinking of, too.

That's a little over 500km round trip and probably not for a regular season game. Bellingham-Spokane RT is 1180 km.

Meaningless travel is not a part of the rest of the world's soccer experience. They do something else - they spend their time on a field actually playing the sport.

[Left Foot]

3Play<<What kind of evidence you need depends on the nature of the statement. The statements of fact coming from FlyOnTheWall are reasonable and undisputed. He has provided good reasons for not detailing his sources. So to me, the claims are highly credible.>>

WTF!!!!!!

Try this statement on for size:


There is some speculation in the soccer community regarding what the compensation packages are for some employees at the state offices of Washington Youth Soccer. Here are the amounts for Terry Fischer CEO?ED and Gary White D?C

"Terry Fischer ED/CEO
Date of Hire 06/2010
Original Base salary $102,000 annually
Benefits Fully funded family insurance package
Company Vehicle Mercedes 560 SL Super Duper
Annual expense account Approx $13,000"

And TF gave himself a retroactive $2000 raise and likes Rob Patz.

Oh yeah, and if I state my source I'll be in trouble so don't ask.

In your book the statements above would be credible. But I just made it all up. Because no one is in a position to dispute something and the person making the statement comes up with a good reason why they can't reveal their source , it is true? Again WTF. You been talking to Sage to come up with this weird logic?

By the way, your second paragraph makes sense though.

But, see? Your claim was disputed in your own post. Nobody has disputed FlyOnTheWall's claims yet. It's not about logic - it's about assessing incomplete evidence.

I'm surprised to see you fall for the line(s) offered by EWDOC and others: 1. "Ignore because there is no (undefined) official proof." 2. "It's OK because somebody else in a soccer club somewhere else is also corrupt." 3. "Why do I care about alleged misconduct? The organization does all of these wonderful things!" Sad, really.

You are kidding, right? It is a hypothetical so pretend like the allegation I made didn't appear bundled with ad admission that it was made up. Get it now?

How about this.....I dispute Fly's allegations and can't tell you what my source is 'cause I would get in trouble with the folks I got the info from. Now does that make Fly's allegations more or less credible in your mind?

And questioning your logic related to whether bald-faced allegations without a supporting source are credible when made by an anonymous source doesn't mean I agree or disagree with EWDOC. As a matter of fact, I saw a lot of truth in the second paragraph of your post aside from the dopey credibility test you propose.

Why don't you just say, "I find it credible because I want to believe it." Or maybe just say if it's true blah blah blah....it's not as bad as having the USSR of soccer telling us to drive a 100 miles to a soccer game...blah blah blah.

[tripleplay]

3Play<<What kind of evidence you need depends on the nature of the statement. The statements of fact coming from FlyOnTheWall are reasonable and undisputed. He has provided good reasons for not detailing his sources. So to me, the claims are highly credible.>>

WTF!!!!!!

Try this statement on for size:


There is some speculation in the soccer community regarding what the compensation packages are for some employees at the state offices of Washington Youth Soccer. Here are the amounts for Terry Fischer CEO?ED and Gary White D?C

"Terry Fischer ED/CEO
Date of Hire 06/2010
Original Base salary $102,000 annually
Benefits Fully funded family insurance package
Company Vehicle Mercedes 560 SL Super Duper
Annual expense account Approx $13,000"

And TF gave himself a retroactive $2000 raise and likes Rob Patz.

Oh yeah, and if I state my source I'll be in trouble so don't ask.

In your book the statements above would be credible. But I just made it all up. Because no one is in a position to dispute something and the person making the statement comes up with a good reason why they can't reveal their source , it is true? Again WTF. You been talking to Sage to come up with this weird logic?

By the way, your second paragraph makes sense though.

But, see? Your claim was disputed in your own post. Nobody has disputed FlyOnTheWall's claims yet. It's not about logic - it's about assessing incomplete evidence.

I'm surprised to see you fall for the line(s) offered by EWDOC and others: 1. "Ignore because there is no (undefined) official proof." 2. "It's OK because somebody else in a soccer club somewhere else is also corrupt." 3. "Why do I care about alleged misconduct? The organization does all of these wonderful things!" Sad, really.

You are kidding, right? It is a hypothetical so pretend like the allegation I made didn't appear bundled with ad admission that it was made up. Get it now?

How about this.....I dispute Fly's allegations and can't tell you what my source is 'cause I would get in trouble with the folks I got the info from. Now does that make Fly's allegations more or less credible in your mind?

And questioning your logic related to whether bald-faced allegations without a supporting source are credible when made by an anonymous source doesn't mean I agree or disagree with EWDOC. As a matter of fact, I saw a lot of truth in the second paragraph of your post aside from the dopey credibility test you propose.

Why don't you just say, "I find it credible because I want to believe it." Or maybe just say if it's true blah blah blah....it's not as bad as having the USSR of soccer telling us to drive a 100 miles to a soccer game...blah blah blah.

I guess you don't read newspapers. "Governor candidate killed in Mexico" That statement contains no information for you - you completely disregard all information short of seeing the shots fired and touching the corpse?

I do read newspapers and am capable of evaluating the evidence that is out there, including FlyOnTheWall's credible statements of fact. 

[Left Foot]

3Play<<What kind of evidence you need depends on the nature of the statement. The statements of fact coming from FlyOnTheWall are reasonable and undisputed. He has provided good reasons for not detailing his sources. So to me, the claims are highly credible.>>

WTF!!!!!!

Try this statement on for size:


There is some speculation in the soccer community regarding what the compensation packages are for some employees at the state offices of Washington Youth Soccer. Here are the amounts for Terry Fischer CEO?ED and Gary White D?C

"Terry Fischer ED/CEO
Date of Hire 06/2010
Original Base salary $102,000 annually
Benefits Fully funded family insurance package
Company Vehicle Mercedes 560 SL Super Duper
Annual expense account Approx $13,000"

And TF gave himself a retroactive $2000 raise and likes Rob Patz.

Oh yeah, and if I state my source I'll be in trouble so don't ask.

In your book the statements above would be credible. But I just made it all up. Because no one is in a position to dispute something and the person making the statement comes up with a good reason why they can't reveal their source , it is true? Again WTF. You been talking to Sage to come up with this weird logic?

By the way, your second paragraph makes sense though.

But, see? Your claim was disputed in your own post. Nobody has disputed FlyOnTheWall's claims yet. It's not about logic - it's about assessing incomplete evidence.

I'm surprised to see you fall for the line(s) offered by EWDOC and others: 1. "Ignore because there is no (undefined) official proof." 2. "It's OK because somebody else in a soccer club somewhere else is also corrupt." 3. "Why do I care about alleged misconduct? The organization does all of these wonderful things!" Sad, really.

You are kidding, right? It is a hypothetical so pretend like the allegation I made didn't appear bundled with ad admission that it was made up. Get it now?

How about this.....I dispute Fly's allegations and can't tell you what my source is 'cause I would get in trouble with the folks I got the info from. Now does that make Fly's allegations more or less credible in your mind?

And questioning your logic related to whether bald-faced allegations without a supporting source are credible when made by an anonymous source doesn't mean I agree or disagree with EWDOC. As a matter of fact, I saw a lot of truth in the second paragraph of your post aside from the dopey credibility test you propose.

Why don't you just say, "I find it credible because I want to believe it." Or maybe just say if it's true blah blah blah....it's not as bad as having the USSR of soccer telling us to drive a 100 miles to a soccer game...blah blah blah.

I guess you don't read newspapers. "Governor candidate killed in Mexico" That statement contains no information for you - you completely disregard all information short of seeing the shots fired and touching the corpse?

I do read newspapers and am capable of evaluating the evidence that is out there, including FlyOnTheWall's credible statements of fact. 

Lets see -- Newspaper journalism vs. Anonymous forum allegations.....hmmmmmm Are you drunk or still kidding? 

[tripleplay]

Lets see -- Newspaper journalism vs. Anonymous forum allegations.....hmmmmmm Are you drunk or still kidding? 

You are not thinking clearly. Why would newspapers investigate the compensation policies of a soccer organization??? We have what we have. Plausible undisputed statements of fact by someone with ties to the organization. I judge them to be essentially credible. I could be wrong. Others could reasonably come to different conclusions.

But that is not what we are seeing here. What we are seeing are apologists trying to change the subject with the dubious rationale that the evidence does not rise to some unknown and possibly unattainable level.

 

[EWDOC]

Lefty, we don't have to agree which is what makes our debates fun because at least we try to consider each other's opinion on a matter even if we don't agree. 

But this is getting laughable now.  Who ever said that Fly has credible ties to anything?  No where in this post has that claim been made till now and only by 3play. 

BTW, the travel issue, take that one up with your clubs because that's where it's being driven from, not the state.  As long as the clubs in Spokane and Bellingham insist on having to play each other they will continue to do so.

[Left Foot]

Lefty, we don't have to agree which is what makes our debates fun because at least we try to consider each other's opinion on a matter even if we don't agree. 

But this is getting laughable now.  Who ever said that Fly has credible ties to anything?  No where in this post has that claim been made till now and only by 3play. 

BTW, the travel issue, take that one up with your clubs because that's where it's being driven from, not the state.  As long as the clubs in Spokane and Bellingham insist on having to play each other they will continue to do so.

It is very easy just to take the issue as a hypothetical e.g. IF x and y are true, would it be ethical etc.

I never quite got the fixation on travel. We liked to travel and hopping over to Spokane every now and then paled in comparison to the travel we did each summer. Shoot, it only seems fair.

3Play, if a newspaper reported what Fly has alleged I could assume that it would either state it's sources (at least 2 I believe) or vet any unnamed sources very carefully. Add that to an attributed author and an editorial staff standing behind the story and a serious risk of loss of readership if the information is incorrect and I'm finding the newspaper a wee bit more credible than an allegation by an anonymous poster on a frickin' forum where many folks are unabashedly thrashing out very personal grudges.

[EWSoccer64]

>>>Klinsman how common it is in Germany for a 12 year old to travel 1000 kms for a single one-hour soccer game.<<<

They take the train.  My borther was going from Berlin to Hamburg for a game when he was younger than that.   Scored several goals in that one match I am thinking of, too.

That's a little over 500km round trip and probably not for a regular season game. Bellingham-Spokane RT is 1180 km.

Meaningless travel is not a part of the rest of the world's soccer experience. They do something else - they spend their time on a field actually playing the sport.

He also went to Stuttgart and Munich.   On trains through the DDR.

Tellus your experience playing youth soccr in the ret of the world, 3Play.

[tripleplay]

>>>Klinsman how common it is in Germany for a 12 year old to travel 1000 kms for a single one-hour soccer game.<<<

They take the train.  My borther was going from Berlin to Hamburg for a game when he was younger than that.   Scored several goals in that one match I am thinking of, too.

That's a little over 500km round trip and probably not for a regular season game. Bellingham-Spokane RT is 1180 km.

Meaningless travel is not a part of the rest of the world's soccer experience. They do something else - they spend their time on a field actually playing the sport.

He also went to Stuttgart and Munich.   On trains through the DDR.

Tellus your experience playing youth soccr in the ret of the world, 3Play.

So to clarify what you are saying: At an age of 12 or younger your brother played on a team in Berlin that had regular season games in Hamburg, Stuttgart and Munich? Please do elaborate on the details.


 

[tripleplay]

Lefty, we don't have to agree which is what makes our debates fun because at least we try to consider each other's opinion on a matter even if we don't agree.  

But this is getting laughable now.  Who ever said that Fly has credible ties to anything?  No where in this post has that claim been made till now and only by 3play.  

BTW, the travel issue, take that one up with your clubs because that's where it's being driven from, not the state.  As long as the clubs in Spokane and Bellingham insist on having to play each other they will continue to do so.

It is very easy just to take the issue as a hypothetical e.g. IF x and y are true, would it be ethical etc.

I never quite got the fixation on travel. We liked to travel and hopping over to Spokane every now and then paled in comparison to the travel we did each summer. Shoot, it only seems fair.

3Play, if a newspaper reported what Fly has alleged I could assume that it would either state it's sources (at least 2 I believe) or vet any unnamed sources very carefully. Add that to an attributed author and an editorial staff standing behind the story and a serious risk of loss of readership if the information is incorrect and I'm finding the newspaper a wee bit more credible than an allegation by an anonymous poster on a frickin' forum where many folks are unabashedly thrashing out very personal grudges.

The flaw is that you are implying that any information less credible than a newspaper report (BTW your post suggests that you haven't been reading many newspaper articles lately) immediately goes to zero credibility and that is faulty thinking.

For example, your own posts are quite credible. When you tried to lie to make a point above, you couldn't even let the lie stand for a single paragraph before you felt compelled to correct it. So while anybody's posts might contain mistakes, including yours, I can judge that flagrant dishonesty on your part is not likely to be a source of error. In a similar manner, I can come to conclusions about the information content of FlyOnTheWall's posts.

[EWSoccer64]

>>>Klinsman how common it is in Germany for a 12 year old to travel 1000 kms for a single one-hour soccer game.<<<

They take the train.  My borther was going from Berlin to Hamburg for a game when he was younger than that.   Scored several goals in that one match I am thinking of, too.

That's a little over 500km round trip and probably not for a regular season game. Bellingham-Spokane RT is 1180 km.

Meaningless travel is not a part of the rest of the world's soccer experience. They do something else - they spend their time on a field actually playing the sport.

He also went to Stuttgart and Munich.   On trains through the DDR.

Tellus your experience playing youth soccr in the ret of the world, 3Play.

So to clarify what you are saying: At an age of 12 or younger your brother played on a team in Berlin that had regular season games in Hamburg, Stuttgart and Munich? Please do elaborate on the details.


 

Exactly what I said.   At the age of YOUNGER than 12, my brother's team from West Berlin was playing single games against teams from other cities in Germany, including Hamburg, Stuttgart and Munich.   You still have not answered the question about your youth soccer experience in Europe, 3Play.   Why not?

[Left Foot]

Lefty, we don't have to agree which is what makes our debates fun because at least we try to consider each other's opinion on a matter even if we don't agree.  

But this is getting laughable now.  Who ever said that Fly has credible ties to anything?  No where in this post has that claim been made till now and only by 3play.  

BTW, the travel issue, take that one up with your clubs because that's where it's being driven from, not the state.  As long as the clubs in Spokane and Bellingham insist on having to play each other they will continue to do so.

It is very easy just to take the issue as a hypothetical e.g. IF x and y are true, would it be ethical etc.

I never quite got the fixation on travel. We liked to travel and hopping over to Spokane every now and then paled in comparison to the travel we did each summer. Shoot, it only seems fair.

3Play, if a newspaper reported what Fly has alleged I could assume that it would either state it's sources (at least 2 I believe) or vet any unnamed sources very carefully. Add that to an attributed author and an editorial staff standing behind the story and a serious risk of loss of readership if the information is incorrect and I'm finding the newspaper a wee bit more credible than an allegation by an anonymous poster on a frickin' forum where many folks are unabashedly thrashing out very personal grudges.

The flaw is that you are implying that any information less credible than a newspaper report (BTW your post suggests that you haven't been reading many newspaper articles lately) immediately goes to zero credibility and that is faulty thinking.

For example, your own posts are quite credible. When you tried to lie to make a point above, you couldn't even let the lie stand for a single paragraph before you felt compelled to correct it. So while anybody's posts might contain mistakes, including yours, I can judge that flagrant dishonesty on your part is not likely to be a source of error. In a similar manner, I can come to conclusions about the information content of FlyOnTheWall's posts.

That I was lying was the whole point AND, I pointed it out to make a point. BTW, one of your criteria for judging the credibility of a post is that the info sounds reasonable. Well, the whole point of Fly's allegations is that the pay and subsequent raises are NOT reasonable.

So, by your own criteria the allegations are 1)Not reasonable and 2) disputed (I disputed them earlier). Now, are the allegations credible? Or, could we just agree that Fly could be lying through his or her teeth or, somehow, like a youth soccer Daniel Ellsberg having obtained the WYS Pentagon papers, totally reliable, but, nevertheless get on with the discussion of the proper remuneration for the WYS leadership?

Generally, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

[Edson Arantes]

EWDOC, when I asked what added value that they brought that justified the highest salaries, I meant what did they bring to the table different from the previous holders of the position. I think that is a reasonable request when more money is given.

To go with your list:

 They fund TOP Soccer across the state-this program was there prior to these being hired, have they improved it?, , fund Soccer Across Washington this is a program addition implemented by DA's wife, fund a staff that is implementing programs in the schools - this program is a addition, work with the Sounders to create our state teams at a lower cost then ODP ever could - Yes the ODP assocation with the Sounders is new, or perhaps more involved than before, I would like to see the cost differential and what is provided by the Sounders first to determine if this is a benefit to both, just WYS, or just the Sounders (PR),  provide administrative support to their member associations-was there prior to these 2 being hired, have they improved it? , coaching education -was there prior to these 2 being hired, processes were changed, they've charged more per "student" taking each course, but will probably end up with at least 40% fewer "students" instructed in comparison to historical data. , all of which cost $$$.  Could they do it for less, you got me there.  But my question is still of all the $$$ I put out for my kid as a player, that $12 is probably the least of my worries when I add up local association and club costs.  Are you all telling me that all of those dollars are being spent more wisely and productively???  Just asking...and No, I don't work for the state nor get paid for what I do in soccer.- Yes, this is a question to ask, and yes, if your child's coach is not performing to your standards, you either go to the DOC of the club seeking changes, or vote with your feet by moving to another club or team. At the WYS level,if changes aren't made if they are ineffective or not performing to standards, and there is no response from going above them, then there will be more opportunities for outside organizations (e.g. US Club) to garner those who will vote with their feet.

By my way of thinking, if you are going to be paid significantly more, you have to bring more to the table. Are they doing more to increasing the mission of WYS, is the impact about the same as before, or is it worse?

[tripleplay]

Exactly what I said.   At the age of YOUNGER than 12, my brother's team from West Berlin was playing single games against teams from other cities in Germany, including Hamburg, Stuttgart and Munich. 

 How old was he and what was the team he played for and in what league? It's completely unlike anything I've ever heard so am curious.

In Brazil they didn't even have a national championship for PROFESSIONALS until the 70's and it took a while for it to attain the status of the state championships, which are still contested and prestigious.

[tripleplay]

Generally, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

The statements of fact are not extraordinary (someone gets a pay raise) and I judge them to be credible for the reasons already given. Your refusal to say what standard of evidence would be reasonable for information such as this is what makes your position fall apart.

[EWSoccer64]

Exactly what I said.   At the age of YOUNGER than 12, my brother's team from West Berlin was playing single games against teams from other cities in Germany, including Hamburg, Stuttgart and Munich. 

 How old was he and what was the team he played for and in what league? It's completely unlike anything I've ever heard so am curious.

In Brazil they didn't even have a national championship for PROFESSIONALS until the 70's and it took a while for it to attain the status of the state championships, which are still contested and prestigious.

You still have to answer the question about your European Youth Soccer Experience.

[EWSoccer64]

The improvements to ODP, the RTCs, and removal of the Big Club politicalization of ODP is worth more to me than the entire $12 per kid paid to the state.   And I do not have any kids in ODP.   So in response to your "added value" question, right there is enough.   Schumacher did a lousy job, removing him might have been worth the money alone.

EWDOC, when I asked what added value that they brought that justified the highest salaries, I meant what did they bring to the table different from the previous holders of the position. I think that is a reasonable request when more money is given.

To go with your list:

 They fund TOP Soccer across the state-this program was there prior to these being hired, have they improved it?, , fund Soccer Across Washington this is a program addition implemented by DA's wife, fund a staff that is implementing programs in the schools - this program is a addition, work with the Sounders to create our state teams at a lower cost then ODP ever could - Yes the ODP assocation with the Sounders is new, or perhaps more involved than before, I would like to see the cost differential and what is provided by the Sounders first to determine if this is a benefit to both, just WYS, or just the Sounders (PR),  provide administrative support to their member associations-was there prior to these 2 being hired, have they improved it? , coaching education -was there prior to these 2 being hired, processes were changed, they've charged more per "student" taking each course, but will probably end up with at least 40% fewer "students" instructed in comparison to historical data. , all of which cost $$$.  Could they do it for less, you got me there.  But my question is still of all the $$$ I put out for my kid as a player, that $12 is probably the least of my worries when I add up local association and club costs.  Are you all telling me that all of those dollars are being spent more wisely and productively???  Just asking...and No, I don't work for the state nor get paid for what I do in soccer.- Yes, this is a question to ask, and yes, if your child's coach is not performing to your standards, you either go to the DOC of the club seeking changes, or vote with your feet by moving to another club or team. At the WYS level,if changes aren't made if they are ineffective or not performing to standards, and there is no response from going above them, then there will be more opportunities for outside organizations (e.g. US Club) to garner those who will vote with their feet.

By my way of thinking, if you are going to be paid significantly more, you have to bring more to the table. Are they doing more to increasing the mission of WYS, is the impact about the same as before, or is it worse?

[tripleplay]

Exactly what I said.   At the age of YOUNGER than 12, my brother's team from West Berlin was playing single games against teams from other cities in Germany, including Hamburg, Stuttgart and Munich. 

 How old was he and what was the team he played for and in what league? It's completely unlike anything I've ever heard so am curious.

In Brazil they didn't even have a national championship for PROFESSIONALS until the 70's and it took a while for it to attain the status of the state championships, which are still contested and prestigious.

You still have to answer the question about your European Youth Soccer Experience.

It was such that I have never heard of a nationwide league for 11 year olds in Germany. So please fill in the gap.