When a Coach breaks the rules

[soccerfan94]

Is it ever OK for a coach to break the rules.

Loaded question but one that is interesting to ponder, under what situation is it ok for a coach to break the rules.

If a coach knowingly plays an unregistered player in a tournament, either to win, or not to lose, if they are short handed and would have to play down a player, puts an unrostered player on the field as a guest player, or lastly puts an overaged player on the field.

Coaches are bond by a code of conduct and parents and players have to trust and respect the coach, but the coach must also act with ethics and follow the rules of the game, because he/she has so much influence over these young people and their parents trust that he/she will do what is right.

[meluvsoccer]

That is a loaded question.  There are SO many rules out there. 

Your example is one that is pretty simple (in my mind). No, it is NOT OK to use an unrostered (or unregistered) player in a tournament or even in any game.  I think, that is actually an act, that is suspendable by WYS (I know I read it somewhere, if not at WYS, maybe it was PDL).

An example, of breaking rules is when it comes to Laws of the Game.  Many coaches will teach their players to foul (we call it a professional foul) to not allow the attacker in a 1v1 situation with the keeper (or hitting the ball with your hand to keep it out of the goal - where have we seen that recently).  It is technically breaking the rules, but it is known and down and accepted.

But, there are SO many rules out there that it is very hard to go out and say yea/nay.  It is not an answer that is just Yes or No.

Generally, though, I would say it is not OK to break league/state/tournament rules.  It is not OK to cross the line of ethical/moral conduct. 

[ltg]

an overage player is always against the rules, an unrostered player of appropriate age may be a paperwork issue but technically against the rules. one offense is blatantly cheating in my mind, the other may be a manager issue and not even a coaching issue.  all the kids will be punished if discovered so they should not happen in an ethical world like youth sports no matter what the reason  

[duffer]

yes cheating is good it makes you shitbags out there feel better and helps fill that sence of acomplishment you want for your kids I like it anything for a win

[soccerfan94]

Having to deal with a coach that people respect and trust, but when they do cross the moral and ethical line, what do you do next.

These coaches have so much influence over these players, that most would not even question their actions because they trust them as do the parent, to trust them to do what is best for the kids, but still live within the rules.

What should happen to a coach that does one or more of these things and then using the excuse that it what was best for the kids.

[ltg]

ROLE MODEL APPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR.  it's that easy.  if you don't like the rules, you have to change them, not break them.  now if this is for scrimmages etc, no big deal but tournament play has rules, league play has rules.

[LWRoller]

Having to deal with a coach that people respect and trust, but when they do cross the moral and ethical line, what do you do next.

These coaches have so much influence over these players, that most would not even question their actions because they trust them as do the parent, to trust them to do what is best for the kids, but still live within the rules.

What should happen to a coach that does one or more of these things and then using the excuse that it what was best for the kids.

Am I missing sonething here?  I can't think of a situation where crossing the moral and ethical line would be best for the kids. 

Call the coach on it - if he/she excuses it, discuss with the next level (DoC, board, whatever).  If they excuse it, it sounds like a bunch of families are the the wrong team/club.

[soccerfan94]

Parents have to take a stand, be it a moral, or ethical stand, which ever and yes the player(s) will not be happy, but isn't it important to teach life lessons to our kids, so they grow up knowing what is right and to do the right thing, even if you hate the outcome.  It would be easier for a younger team to survive this type of situation, but what if this was a 14, 15, 16 year old team.  Does this make it worse.  I think so.

[soccerpride]

Here is an idea, how about the coach actually work on developing his/her own players so they never feel like they would have to bypass the rules (*cough...cheat*). In situations where a team is short on players, coaches/managers usually know this in advance and prepare accordingly. I have seen games when the team has zero subs, but they don't break the rules. Yes, their players could have used an extra player, but the coach spoke to the team, explained the circumstances, and the team worked harder and still advanced to finals to win the tournament.

[basketballdad]

LW Roller said it better than I could. Easy question. Bring out the hard ones.

[EWSoccer64]

LW Roller said it better than I could. Easy question. Bring out the hard ones.

If a coach cheats to achieve any sort of result, then he is teaching the kids to do that.   Anyone who finds that acceptable is the type of parent or coach who encourages kids to take steroids.

And yes, I have come across a few parents who had done that with their kids in soccer.  (and other sports). 

[Liverpoolfan]

I just heard this from one of the parents of a U10 team playing in the "Silver" U10 division at the Nike Cup:

Player A was playing for a team in the Gold U10 bracket.  Her team was knocked out so she then went to a different team from a different club to play in the semifinal of the Silver Bracket.  Here is the kicker!  The coach of the other team in the Silver bracket was the coach of the team she played for in the Gold bracket and she filed a formal protest and the kids Silver team was disqualified.

The coach should be fired IMHO!

[soccerpride]

This is what is really sad, this little girl and her parent(s) probably had no clue of what the rules are. They probably went along and trusted the coach(es), because they should know better then them. I cannot imagine what this little girl is thinking, or maybe because she is so young it has not phased her.

I just heard this from one of the parents of a U10 team playing in the "Silver" U10 division at the Nike Cup:

Player A was playing for a team in the Gold U10 bracket.  Her team was knocked out so she then went to a different team from a different club to play in the semifinal of the Silver Bracket.  Here is the kicker!  The coach of the other team in the Silver bracket was the coach of the team she played for in the Gold bracket and she filed a formal protest and the kids Silver team was disqualified.

The coach should be fired IMHO!

[TheWarpedDog]

LW Roller said it better than I could. Easy question. Bring out the hard ones.

If a coach cheats to achieve any sort of result, then he is teaching the kids to do that.   Anyone who finds that acceptable is the type of parent or coach who encourages kids to take steroids.

And yes, I have come across a few parents who had done that with their kids in soccer.  (and other sports). 

Few words and very well said EW.   

[soccerfan94]

It sounds like everyone agrees that coaches should not break the rules regardless of the reason.  Now the  big question, what kind of punishment should a coach face if he does break the rules.

Example #1 coach recruits player(s) off a team that is already formed, sends e-mails and phone calls asking them to play.

Example #2 coach plays an unregistered, unrostered and overaged player in a game.

Example #3 coach from one club invites player(s) who are currently playing for another team and club to attend a practice the night before they are playing a big game.

What should the punishments be for each example.

[EWSoccer64]

It sounds like everyone agrees that coaches should not break the rules regardless of the reason.  Now the  big question, what kind of punishment should a coach face if he does break the rules.

Example #1 coach recruits player(s) off a team that is already formed, sends e-mails and phone calls asking them to play.
In 3Rivers, that is allowed.   But for any coach recruiting elsewhere, a one year suspension for a first offense.
Example #2 coach plays an unregistered, unrostered and overaged player in a game.
Even in 3Rivers, that is not allowed.   So it must be more serious.   A two year suspension for a first offense and fining the club for a lack of supervision.
Example #3 coach from one club invites player(s) who are currently playing for another team and club to attend a practice the night before they are playing a big game.
  If the players own team coach approves, then nothing.   If the players own team coach has not given permission, then see example 1.

What should the punishments be for each example.

[Left Foot]

How about this one: Coach yells ethnic slurs at a 14 year-old Hispanic player on the other team during a game for all to hear.

Excerpt from FIFA rule re discrimination:

As part of its efforts to rid football of racism, FIFA has made a clear statement with the recent revision of article 58 of the Disciplinary Code, which explicitly states that any form of disparaging, discriminatory or denigrating statement or action must be punished with a suspension, fine or other sanction.
http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/worldwideprograms/fifacampaigns/antiracism/endeavours.html

I guess this isn't cheating though, so please continue....

[soccerfan94]

EW
Would it surprize you that all three of these examples have occured in the last 5 months in the Seattle Youth Soccer Association.
Seattle United has been or their coaches have done these things with very limited exposure to the public.
What is most interesting is that if this brand new club that said they were going to change the mind set of soccer in Seattle and do things differently, then why are these ame things happening.

I am not trying to turn this into bashing Seattle United.

But I just heard that a Seattle United Coach played an unregistered, unrostered, 20 year old in a tournament game and only got suspended for 1 month.  What kind of message are they sending to the soccer community.

[EWSoccer64]

If it were in a meaningless game and the other coach knew about it, then I would have no problem with it.
If it were in a tournament game that counted or a league game, even if the opposing coach knew about it, one would think that as cheating.
This of course pales with what other coaches have gotten away with elsewhere, which is not an excuse, just an observation.

EW
Would it surprize you that all three of these examples have occured in the last 5 months in the Seattle Youth Soccer Association.
Seattle United has been or their coaches have done these things with very limited exposure to the public.
What is most interesting is that if this brand new club that said they were going to change the mind set of soccer in Seattle and do things differently, then why are these ame things happening.

I am not trying to turn this into bashing Seattle United.

But I just heard that a Seattle United Coach played an unregistered, unrostered, 20 year old in a tournament game and only got suspended for 1 month.  What kind of message are they sending to the soccer community.

[soccerfan94]

So, if no one knew about the overaged player but the coach, players and parents, and the coach did not inform the tournament, referee or other coach and the 20 year old was also the listed assistant coach.  Then would a month be enough or would you seek a much longer term for both the coach and the assistant coach.  If that is what happened.

[Left Foot]

So, if no one knew about the overaged player but the coach, players and parents, and the coach did not inform the tournament, referee or other coach and the 20 year old was also the listed assistant coach.  Then would a month be enough or would you seek a much longer term for both the coach and the assistant coach.  If that is what happened.

Was the game meaningful or a situation where neither team would be harmed by a loss -- say where both teams are already out of a tourney and it is the third game?

[soccerfan94]

Should that really matter.  Even if the game did not mean anything at all, what kind of message is the coach sending.  We can always play the what if game, but I ask again, should it really matter the reason.  How can anyone explain or excuse this type of behavior, and knowingly play a grossly over aged, no longer a teen in a game.

[EWSoccer64]

 My boys played a team once in District league play where the opponents had many of the players drive themselves to a game.   Their assistant coach, seeing that they were short of players, dressed down in a uniform and began to warm up with the rest of the players.  Luckily, a couple of late arrivals drove themselves up and the opposing assistant coach went off to the sideline, took his cleats off and put his clothes back on.

The game was U-14 league play, all the teams in it were U-14.   We were litterally going to ask to see some of those "kids" drivers liscenses.   Luckily, my youngest son came off the bench and scored a hatrick in the last 10 minutes for us to win 3-1.   So we did not protest, although I quietly spoke to a couple of "responsible people" about the situation.   The club did not want us to make "waves".

That was a game that mattered, a league match, not one where both teams were playing out a tournament schedule after being eliminated.

[soccerfan94]

Thanks EW.

I think teams, clubs and associations have become to politically correct and no one is willing to take a stand or stand up for what is right, regardless of the waves it may cause.  It is easy for me to say to you, someone should have turned the other team into the league, and the state for what they did, sometimes doing the right thing is the hardest thing to do.  I guess it does come down to the moral and ethical debate again, do what is right, follow the rules and use these lessons as teaching tools for the kids.  Some times these lessons are very hard and the kids will not really understand, but if we do not hold coaches, teams, clubs, associations and even the State to these standards, what are we really teaching our kids?  When things get a little tough, it is ok to choose which rules to follow and which ones to ignor.  I sure hope not.

[soccerfan94]

What does this say about the state of soccer in Washington.

I wonder why more people are not up in arms about what this coach did and also why more people are not holding SU to a higher standard, come on, a 1 month suspension for playing a 20 year old assistant coach in a tournament game.  Sure the game did not mean anything, but isn't that when coaches need to follow the rules, it is easy to follow the rules when games mean something, but what about when they do not, what are we saying to the players and parents, what example are they setting.  Is this the type of lessions we want to teach our kids, it is only important to follow the rules when something is on the line.

[swiftkick]

When breaking the rules undermines the reason we play, then the punishment should match the crime.  Side note...do you realize that it is against NCAA rules to have caffine within 24 hrs of a collegiate game?  When I played in College i don't think anyone even realized this was in the rules.

[soccerfan94]

Lots of reading, but not many opinions.

Here is a few more details about this whole situation.  Only 1 family objected and it was this family that turned the coaches into the Seattle United coaching director.  During the time they reported the violation, they had informed the coach in question that their daughter would not return to the team until he admitted to what he did and apologize to the team and explaing why what he did was so wrong.  Instead of stepping up and doing the right thing, he informed the parents that because of the parents actions, he concluded that they had withdrawn thier daughter from the team and there for the player would not be included in such things team e-mails or even voting for team captains for the year.  Is this the type of coach that Seattle United wants coaching for them, I guess it is. 

As for the suspension for the month of August, if the State agrees with Seattle Uniteds punishment, then are they not setting a new standard for suspension, or even allowing clubs to fire a coach.  It makes you wonder if coaches from Seattle United or other clubs will not use this against their parent clubs if they are brought up on charges or if they try to fire a coach.

[SoccerFlicks]

Ethical issues - is it right, ethically sound, for one club to remove and destroy the advertising signs of another club?

[kameharem]

Ethical issues - is it right, ethically sound, for one club to remove and destroy the advertising signs of another club?

need more info:
were they advertising their club or their sponsors?
where were they advertising? at a tourney? on the street? at a business?
what are the laws of the city or rules at the tourney where advert was posted?
do we know it was another club official or was it a city official or a community person who did it on their own?

[soccerfan94]

I think everyone would say that it is not right or ethically sound to remove anyone's advertising signs.  I think in this State if they were political signs, that is is against the law to do so, it is also up to each city if they will allow yard signs, I know of at least 1 that does not allow any kind at all.

Regardless of the laws, no one should do such a thing at all, and no club should stand by and watch that happen.  Please tell us which club had their signs taken down, and which club replaced them.

This just proves my point, coaches, teams, parents, clubs, and associations have to set the standard that everyone else follows, be the leader not the follower.  Make a stand, it may not be the popular thing to do, but it is the right thing to do.  Just wish Seattle United would have done the right thing and not the easy thing with this coach.